Citação:
Postado originalmente por Dennis FigueiredoCitação:
Postado originalmente por marco cruzMarcelo,
Realmente o Dennis tem razão.
Os designers/projetistas da FIAT e FORD também são profissionais e estudaram muito para os carros referidos serem lançados, e não deveriam ser atacados.
Quanto ao pneu, Dennis, ninguém vai entrar com uma pick-up Hummer no pinheirinho em dia de chuva; aliás, discordo de vc qdo fala que os pneus BF não cumprem o que prometem - depende de seu motor. Não adianta nada vc colocar esses pneus com aquela m**** do motorzinho original, não serve para nada mesmo; agora, com um motor decente, pode ter certeza de que ele funciona e muito bem, e com segurança no asfalto, se precisar...
Um 4.1 mpfi serve???? :shock: prefiro os froteira. Tenho amigos e usam os BFG vivem sendo puxados por nós, e olha que ninguem aqui usa motor original. Eu tambem tenho um jogo de BFG 33"... mas uso apenas pra passeios, rodar normalmente, e na areia da praia. Quando vou ralar mesmo uso os fronteiras. Acho que os BFG mud embuxam muito rápido, e ja li muitos pessoas aqui no f´rum concordando com isso que digo. :D :D
[]´s :D
Pneus BF Nike
Versão Imprimível
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16/02/2004, 11:00Dennis FigueiredoCitação:
Postado originalmente por Dennis Figueiredo
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16/02/2004, 11:02marco cruz
Acho que deveria servir com esse motor, que deve ter força suficiente para limpar o pneu...
Nunca tive problemas (tenho o 3,6l da F-1000) e todos que conheço e utilizam esse pneu tb estão satisfeitos...
Agora, vc há de concordar comigo que às vezes aquela pecinha na frente da direção também pode ajudar (ou atrapalhar, depende)... -
16/02/2004, 11:33Dennis FigueiredoCitação:
Postado originalmente por marco cruz
Sim claro concordo com você :D mas que os fonteira são melhores no barro isso são, em outras situações são uma me$%*, mas no barro nunca vi outro melhor, pricipalmente aqueles mais estreitos, eles cortam o barro no meio e vão embora, e como ja disse: Tenho os dois. O desempenho dos BFG no barro fundo e viscoso nem se compara. É sério quando você tiver uma oportunidade, se ja não teve lógico, faça um trilha com os fronteira, você vai ver que eles são um deboche e você não ficará tão mais satisfeito com seus BFG, bem comigo pelos menos foi assim. :D -
16/02/2004, 12:44marco cruz
Concordo com vc, não há o que dizer do frontiera no barro, é uma ignorância.
Agora acho meio absurdo ouvir que os BFG são ruins de barro - não são tão animais quanto os frontiera, isso é fato.
Mudando de assunto, gostei da sua assinatura: jipe de trilhas e não de desfile... Tem gente que enche de cromadinho, pintura perolizada, de suspensão não-sei-o-que, blá, nhen-nhen-nhen, e o jipe nunca viu uma poça d'água sequer... -
16/02/2004, 13:09Dennis FigueiredoCitação:
Postado originalmente por marco cruz
HAHAHAHAH é verdade Marcão....
Me mato rindo com essa galerinha que quando tem que enfiar o jeep no meio de galhos de árvores ficam todos preocupados ou até nem vão. hehehehe. -
16/02/2004, 18:27Thiago Rodeghel
Vamos com carlma aí Galera :D
Falando sobre jeep com cromados, coisa e tal... Bom naum sei quanto aos outros :roll: , mas não tenho dó não :twisted: ...
Quanto aos BFs, bom :roll: são bem fraquinhos mesmo :roll: , mas pra mim por enquanto tá bom :) , mais pra frente quem sabe uns SS 33 8)
Mas concordo com vcs, são itens fúteis na trilha, esses cromados, se tivessem me falado isso 2 anos atrás, talvez fosse diferente de hoje :roll: .
[s]de jeep arriado, arranhado e trincas no paralama :lol: -
17/02/2004, 00:41Marcelo A. Marchiodi
Dennis...
Tudo bem amigo, sem ressentimentos! :D
Concordo com você, os Frontieira são perfeitos na lama e obedecem o conceito de quanto mais simples... melhor é, só não servem para andar no asfalto, eu até gostaria de salientar também os tradicionais e antigos pneus militares dos Jeeps (em medidas maiores ou não...) que se prestam muito bem no fora-de-estrada "brabo" e no asfalto (+ ou -) e apesar disso parecem meio "renegados" hoje em dia. Na minha opinião, um Jeep "normal" com pneus militares ou Frontieira pode ir em qualquer lugar que um Jeep cheio de "parangolês" inúteis, como muitos que vejo em minha cidade... "jeeps de desfile" como você mesmo disse...
Mas discordo por outro lado: veja bem, sabemos que os Frontieira são muito bons na lama e tal, mas você deve concordar que produtos como esse pneu BF/Nike fazem parte de um processo de desenvolvimento técnológico, industrial e cultural e dele podem sair outros produtos mais aprimorados e funcionais, creio que tenha sido assim com muitos produtos, certo!?
Outra coisa: concordo que os profissionais que criaram o Eco... e o Fiat... são muito bons, afinal eles estão lá e eu aqui... reclamando... :D :D :D , mas eles seguem pesquisas de marketing, capitalismo, obedecem a patrões... e por aí vai... e o que quero fazer (o meu projeto, que disse lá atrás...) é um projeto autonômo que estou pensando a muito tempo já, livre de "modismos" e feito ouvindo-se opiniões (através de pesquisas aqui...) de quem entende do assunto, a maioria neste fórum, sem dúvida!
O que acham??? -
17/02/2004, 07:50Dennis FigueiredoMarcelão...... :D :D :DCitação:
Postado originalmente por Marcelo A. Marchiodi
Se você tiver sucesso nesso projeto fazendo um veículo para trilhas, ouvindo várias opniôes de Jipeiros de verdade, será um veículo du cara*** :twisted: , creio eu que com uma dimensão apropriadas, seja largura e comprimento, mecânica simples, funcional e ROBUSTA, você ganhará a simpatia de todos os trilheiros 4x4. :P .. mas não se esquece que virão também as criticas daqueles caras chatos que irão falar que poderia ter melhor acabamento ser mais macio bla bla bla bla, e que não sabem oque é um verdadeiro veículo OFF ROAD. 8) -
17/02/2004, 10:22billjUm ótimo começo seria isso.........Citação:
Postado originalmente por Dennis Figueiredo
http://www.petitiononline.com/SuziTech/petition.html
An Open Letter to Suzuki Motor Corporation
Who we are
We are an informal group of Suzuki owners and enthusiasts. Our ages range from older teens through middle-age. We come from many income levels and educational backgrounds. We “meet” often on-line and discuss the many ideas we have for the continued use of our Suzuki trucks. Most of us own Samurais (Sierras, Jimnys) and the earlier variants such as the LJ series. Some also own Vitaras (Sidekicks). What we all have in common is our appreciation of the kind of vehicle Suzuki has historically produced: light, capable trucks designed primarily for off-road work and recreation.
What’s this document for?
We believe that there is an opportunity for Suzuki Motor Corporation to develop (and in some respects, recapture) a significant market share by taking advantage of a currently under-served market. Increasingly, off-road capable trucks are designed primarily as on-road vehicles: their off-road capabilities are seriously compromised by considering the up-scale suburban market first, and the serious work-and-recreation off-road market last.
It is our opinion that Suzuki is the company best positioned to take advantage of this under-served market. Suzuki’s historic LJ and SJ series vehicles were excellent examples of how a well-designed vehicle can capture a huge global market share. It’s apparent that that market has not vanished, as may be thought. It has only become largely ignored.
Scope
It is our intention to describe the type of vehicle that would better serve those looking for a “no compromises” off-road capable work and recreation truck. We also hope to provide some insight into the market, as we see it, and how a new design would address market
demand.
The Market
There has historically been a strong market for serious off-road trucks. It appears to have three basic divisions:
Work trucks – those designed for the hauling of cargos, operation of machinery remote from other sources of power, and transport of personnel into less-accessible regions. These range from four-wheel drive pick-up trucks through the Samurai type vehicle to large trucks like the Mercedes Unimog.
Recreational trucks – those generally purchased (often as second or third vehicles) and then modified in varying degrees for everything from camping to rock-crawling to mud runs. Over many years, almost every off-road capable vehicle has been adapted to this purpose. By far, however, vehicles of the Samurai’s basic design plan have been the most popular.
Military trucks – those are often “purpose-designed” for use by military services. Vehicles include everything from the original Willys Jeep through the current Hummer.
It can be seen above that the market for any well-designed off-road capable truck is quite broad. All these segments are likely to adopt it in some manner, so long as it meets their basic requirements. Additionally, all segments will readily “borrow” from designs that
were first aimed for the other segments if the truck is easily adapted to their needs.
Current Offerings
Over recent years, most all of the trucks historically designed to serve the markets noted above have either vanished, changed to meet other market demands and, as a result, become much less suited to the original market, or become specialized to the point of having limited applicability. In North America, for example, there is currently only the Jeep Wrangler TJ and to a lesser extent, the Nissan Xterra, offered as off-road trucks for the recreation segment. Only the relatively expensive Mercedes Unimog truly serves the serious off-highway work segment. And, for the most part, only the HMMV serves the military segment. While this is, admittedly, a North American view, there are similar results in most all other parts of the world.
There are few, if any, purpose-designed, mid-tier off-road capable trucks currently available. In most all cases, one has to “make do” with something designed for another market entirely. Suzuki maintains a “presence” via the Vitara, but the Vitara’s drive train is too light for serious off-road applications. It also suffers the same fate as most of the other vehicles that are considered to be today’s off-road vehicles, and generally marketed as “SUVs”: independent front (and often rear) suspension. Such a suspension is uniquely un-suited for serious off-road use. Besides the suspension compromise, most all mid-tier vehicles suffer from significant weight, complexity and cost penalties through the addition of “luxury” features added in an attempt to capture a portion of the large market of suburban, up-scale buyers who, truth be told, have absolutely no intention of taking their typically USD30,000-and-up vehicle any further off-road than their driveway.
Jeep continues its long tradition of marketing the Wrangler series vehicles, and have even recognized that there is an additional market segment to be gained by offering the TJ Rubicon Edition, aimed at more serious off-road recreation buyers. Nissan has heavily promoted the Xterra as the answer for the recreationalist looking for a serious vehicle to take him or her into the locations used for more extreme sports. Suzuki, however, seems to have abandoned this market entirely.
Suzuki’s reluctance can certainly be understood, considering the serious problems that it encountered in North America as a result of the Consumer Reports article regarding the alleged “roll over propensity” of the Samurai. It is our contention, however, that Suzuki can successfully introduce a successor to the Samurai not only in North America, but all over the world through a combination of excellent design and targeted marketing. Suzuki may face a unique opportunity in this regard. Rumors persist that the Wrangler series of vehicles will ultimately be replaced by an IFS vehicle just as the Cherokee has been replaced by the Liberty. There is virtually no other live-axle vehicle currently produced other than Suzuki’s current Sierra in markets outside North America. A new design, begun by Suzuki now, could reach the market at a time when there is little to no competition. Suzuki’s global presence could allow broad sales in markets where the Wrangler series is weak, as well as in North America where there is a market segment being almost entirely ignored.
Broadly, such a vehicle would have to address the short-comings of the Samurai (a vehicle still remarkably well-suited for its intended purpose) while maintaining a basic simplicity: simple to build, simple to maintain, simple to modify and simple to live with, just as the Samurai was at its introduction.
Basic Considerations
First, focus the thrust of a marketing campaign towards those with active lifestyles. lmages showing the vehicle used to haul sports gear, expedition style off-roading and touring, etc. Nissan has had some success with this for the Xterra.
Second, the vehicle must be given a new name. We suggest bringing back the Brute name that was used on the LJ series trucks in North America in the 1970s. Sierra (Australian name of Samurai) is already in use by General Motors for their line of light trucks. The European name Santana does not mean much in North America and does not give the desired effect for a new light off-road truck. Alternatively, depending on the engine used in the new vehicles, something as simple as SJ-420 could be used.
Suzuki really needs to emphasize that this is not just another SUV in a flooded SUV market. This could be a marketing tool for Suzuki to show they can make an industry leading off-road SUV at an affordable price. This would also help to bring creditability to the IFS-equipped Suzukis. To help market the vehicle, Suzuki should establish their own vehicle owners group, such as has been successfully done with the Saturn marque of General Motors. It helps with word-of-mouth advertising by keeping the owners talking to their friends about the vehicles at the water cooler.
From a packaging and options stand point Suzuki should concentrate on re-using as many existing parts currently in production as possible. For example, re-use the rear axle from the current Grand Vitara XL-7. The third member for this axle can be used in the design of a new front axle. The 2.0 liter engine in the 4 cylinder Vitara is a fine engine and could also be used. We see the 4-cylinder engine being more in keeping with the market and simpler to maintain in the long run, although the 2.5 and 2.7 V-6 engines could also be considered. Fuel economy is very important, one of the reasons why we are Suzuki enthusiasts to begin with.
To simplify options, sell the vehicles in pre-configured option groups. These should vary from simple, basic configurations to the hard-core model that many of us ultimately want. There could be perhaps a total of three or four option groups.
Pricing must be competitive with, or better still, undercut the current Jeep Wrangler TJ. By contrast, the Defender 90 has great equipment and options but an outrageous price tag for the market segment we are addressing. While the base model should undercut the Wrangler TJ significantly, it is possible that a hard-core model might equal or exceed the pricing of a TJ, depending on the options included.
In some circles, Suzukis are seen as low-end vehicles that tend to lack creature comforts and power. This is not actually a problem and can potentially play directly into the market that the truck would address. There is no need for power windows and door locks in a vehicle with removable doors and/or that is going to see deep-water crossings.
Suzuki must not market this vehicle directly as a cutesy beach toy for city teenagers as was done with the Samurai in the past. That is a market where there are sales to be made with a base model, perhaps, but you must also engage the serious off-road purchaser. We’ve been collectively shaking our heads at the current marketing campaign for the Aerio (we’d instead like to see an AWD Ignis with rallye-style advertising not unlike that used by Subaru). Additionally, the current technical marketing campaign used by Volkswagen to market its turbo diesel engine appeals to us as well.
We realize that the marketing of such a vehicle could be an up-hill battle with some segments of the popular media. The Land Rover Defender was reviewed on on the American specialty cable channel Speedvision several months ago and was harshly criticized: lack of creature comforts, noisy, slow, plain styling, dated interior, diesel engine, primitive suspension, etc. Everything we as offroad enthusiasts love in a vehicle – and essentially all the features in common with our Suzukis – the elitist, motoring journalists hated. This is no big surprise. Given the Defender’s price tag and the motoring journalist’s bias towards on-road vehicles. We suggest they should stick to reviewing what they know: automobiles. However, they did make mention that the Defender is becoming something of a status symbol in European cities. Sales have increased over the last several years, in spite of what they claimed were its “shortcomings” compared to its more car-like rivals.
We feel this is a point that needs to be made: the marketplace, especially in North America, does not need yet another Sidekick/ Sportage/ Grand Vitara/ Escape/ Amigo/ CRV/
RAV4. It needs a tough, basic, inexpensive little brute…with a very cool name resurrected from Suzuki's past: BRUTE!
We’d like to see…
Engine and Electrical
Non-interference (free-rotating) version of current 2.0 16V Suzuki motor, tuned for torque in the low (1000 - 3500) RPM range
Optional diesel, with modified transfer case gearing to suit, similar to the offerings in Europe. A turbo diesel engine in the 90-120 HP range would be ideal
80 amp or larger alternator
Dual battery mounts
High current power connection point front and rear like a Toyota or Isuzu truck, suitable for winches or battery boosting (ie: 50 to 200 amp socket with manual ONLY resettable breaker)
Only complicated electronics should be the EFI ECU. Everything else as simple as possible. Use the General Motors ECU as they are cheap - and Suzuki and GM have a working relationship so this should be possible. the issue here is the cost of the ECU which very important if the truck will be used in deep water. It is hard to justify a "cold spare" ECU in you tool box if it is very expensive.
All electronic connectors to be weathertight, and gel sealed where practical
Airbox setup similar to Jeep TJ
Oil/water exchanger (cooler), prefereably thermostatically
controlled
Optional on board engine driven air compressor with electric clutch
Transmission
4:1 or lower first gear
Optional 4 speed auto tranny w/ ECU that is integrated in EFI ECU or location. Non-electronic would be ideal.
Synchromesh reverse gear
Transfer Case
4:1 low
Gear driven transfer case, no chains or belts
"True" neutral in transfer case
Strong tcase mounting system
Low range gear box separate from front axle engagement box, bolt together interface would allow owner to stack low range gear boxes to build gearing to suit his off-roading environment
PTO option.
Non-slip yoke outputs (i.e. fixed yokes or flanges)
Real shifter(s) (i.e. no electronic engagement mechanisms)
Separate 2-4WD and Hi-Lo engagement levers as optional equipment
Triple range transfer case (see stackable low range gear boxes above)
Axles and Propellor Shafts
Live axles front and rear (N.B. This is the make or break item for attracting real off-road enthusiasts! If the vehicle does not have live axles front and rear we will NOT buy it!)
Optional full floating rear axle
Factory optional electric or pneumatic front and rear differential locker
Interchangeable third members front and rear (i.e. same size shafting and sidegears).
High pinion third members
30 spline axles.
Strong u-joints and propellor shafts throughout
Maximum range extendable telescoping propellor shafts
Very strong birfields or possibly use Dana style u-joints
Heavier differential covers (0.120" min. thickness)
Axle/tcase/tranny breathers, plumbs to a high spot on the firewall.
Brakes
4 wheel disk brakes (n.b. rear drum brakes do not work well in muddy terrain as they cake with mud, can be optional equipment)
Oversized vented rotors and calipers for towing duty
Steering and Suspension
Coil suspension (leaf springs are adequate but the marketplace seems to demand coil springs)
Eliminate steering rag joint
"High steer" steering linkage, possibly with the components behind the axle.
Wheels and Tires
15x8 rims with 9-11" wide 31" tires
Lots of wheelwell room (2" diameter)
Retain 5 bolt on 5.5" circle bolt pattern
Body and Dimensions
Seating for 4
Re-introduce the hardtop version, removable metal hartop similar to Toyota Land Cruiser FJ-40 series would be excellent
Re-introduce the long wheelbase version in 2 and/or 4 door configurations
High departure/approach angles, 75 degree or better
10" or more ground clearance
Factory brush guard bumper with winch mount built in (e.g. ARB bumper for Suzuki Samurai)
Factory external cage similar to Defender 90
Attachment points for safari rack
50-60 liter fuel tank with drain bung
Mirrors on body (to facilitate removable doors)
Removeable doors
No power windows/locks etc.
Protected antennae mount
Driver selectable airbag disconnect switch left and right, no air bags if possible within vehicle regulations.
Attachment points for 5 or 6 point safety harnesses, factory harnesses are 3 point at all 4 places.
Real roll bars or integrated 6 point cage components (see external cage above)
Real tow points front and rear
Snorkel ready cyclonic filter box, and external dressy/meshed hole like the series Land Rovers on the fender.
3 different seat options: 4 x single, 2 x single and 1 x fold down double, 2 x single and double 60/40 split fold down
Dust/spray proof audio and ECU bay
Structural mount points for external/slide bars
Quality removeable hard top with defrost and flow through venting like a YJ/TJ top.
2500 lbs total weight
Similar size to old Samurai/SJ-413. Only make larger where necessary to meet safety regulations. A few more inches (i.e. 2"-3")across the interior would be good for larger drivers.
External hood latches
No rust-attracting body extrusions (e.g. fender flare mounts)
Rubber or urethane unpainted flares that bolt to fenders
Minimum 2" (5 cm) clearance between diameter of wheel and bodywork
Zinc-dipped body, undercoated. Real thought put into corrosion resistance.
Stanless steel latches and hardware where possible,especially exposed hinges and latches.
Spare tire centered in back and door/hinges beefed up. Should be able to easily handle the weight of a 35x12.5x15 tire and wheel combination, and provide adequate space for same. This is the approximate tire size that we as enthusiasts will probably be fitting after we buy the heavy duty option version and fit an aftermarket suspension lift.
Rear light clusters mounted in body tub, outboard of tail gate
Front turn signals mounted in grille
Harnesses for rear seat passengers
Better quality door and seat materials (marine grade vinyl)
SJ-410 style fold-forward seat brackets for both front seats
Fold-down windshield (n.b. this is required equipment!)
Door handles that don't snap off
Removable door check straps
Grille to keep leaves and other debris from entering heater/derost grille on hood.
Optional safari rack for hardtop model
Optional gauges: tach, oil press, voltmeter
Simple styling, reminiscent of the LJ or SJ. LJ style front clip with round head lights and turn signals outboard.
Clean, simple dash.
Removable targa bar if targa bar remains a styling element
External door and tail gate hinges
Make the vehicle look like it belongs off-road, not at the shopping mall. It should look good standing still, as delivered from Suzuki.
Flatter is better, no swoopy complex shapes in the sides of the vehicle. Minimal character/stiffening creases like SJs.
Left and right hand driver's seating for the different markets.
N.B.: DO NOT send us the new Jimny - we WON'T buy it! (Low torque engine, even less wheelwell room than an SJ, poorly articulating link suspension, plastic everywhere, low slung plastic front and rear fascias, a weak low range, non-removable doors, no soft top, etc.).
We feel that if Suzuki were to build the vehicle outlined above they would have a real winner on their hands. It would sell in reasonable numbers and quite possibly be one of those vehicles that never quite goes away, not unlike the Land Rover Defenders or the Jeep which have been in production in one form or another for 50 years or more. We are effectively suggesting renewing the existing Samurai.
A vehicle as described here would be one of those vehicles that would be a permanent fixture in the enthusiasts garage as well as a potential seller for work or light military use, ready to go anywhere off-road at a moments notice.
Sincerely,
The Undersigned
2047 Total Signatures -
17/02/2004, 10:58marco cruz
Bill, could you please let us know suzuki's answer, if any?
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19/02/2004, 01:39Marcelo A. Marchiodi
Dennis...
É isso mesmo que quero fazer, vou em frente de qualquer jeito! Que venham as críticas, boas ou ruins... que venham!
Por enquanto estou numa fase de observação e aprendizagem, aqui no fórum ... é lógico! Tenho aprendido bastante!
Logo vou abrir um tópico para discutir a idéia! :D
Bill...
Deu um trabalhão pra ler aquilo tudo, mas acho que peguei o essencial: querem o simples e eficiente de volta, como se nós queressêmos o velho Jeep de volta, estou certo???
O que quero fazer é isso: o simples, barato porém eficiente e confiável!!!
Será que não teria como traduzir o texto por inteiro???
Até mais! -
19/02/2004, 07:06billjCitação:
Postado originalmente por marco cruz
Se me lembro bem, eu fui um dos primeiros a assinar, entre os primeiros 20. Alias, participei na formulação do texto, em conjunto com algumas pessoas de uma lista canadense.......
Nem sequer responderem......... :? :cry: